[OldNorth] 5th Street

[Tracy-Marshall]

Valerie.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I consulted with Unitrans early in our process (I've known their 
General Manager, Antony Palmiere for years).  He came to the Council 
hearing last year when they initiated this study and spoke in support 
of the reconfiguration. He continues to support it.  He doesn't see any 
problems at all with the bus stops as they are, but also sees the 
"downstream" bus stop as a viable solution if necessary to get Public 
Works to quit listing stopped buses blocking the through lane as a 
disadvantage.

I have spoken with Marty Dote of Yolobus, but she was busy leaving the 
Woodland City Council last spring and I was busy getting to Europe, so 
our meeting fell through.  Thanks for the reminder, and I will get back 
to her.

I don't know how Public Works considered buses in the model.  That is 
one of the questions I intend to ask.  Roxanne has assured us we can 
get any data we need, but not given up much so far.

Bikes on the sidewalks is one of the issues we raised, but they don't 
care about it.  Their stand is that those bikes should be on 3rd 
street, end of discussion.  They only care about moving cars.

Keep asking questions, please, because it helps us anticipate things 
that may come up.

Steve Tracy
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 11:42  AM, Valerie Vann wrote:

> Re: 5th St. Traffic proposals, BUSES & BIKES
>
> A couple of notes about BUS TRAFFIC in the study area.
>
> (1) UniTrans uses the London double decker buses on their E Route,
> which operates on F Street. These buses have an English style
> configuration, with passenger exit from the LEFT REAR of the bus.
> Unitrans uses a flagperson/conductor to stop following traffic
> as necessary for passengers to step down into the street.
>
> I don't think they use the London buses on the P-Q line, which
> operates on 5th Street (because they won't clear the Subway),
> but you might want to verify with UniTrans that they don't
> operate the London buses on 5th.
>
> Also:
>
> (2) Has there been coordination with YoloBus as well as UniTrans?
>
> YoloBus operates East and Westbound 42 lines hourly between
> about 5am and 10pm on 5th St., turning onto F Street.
> There are also several commute hour Express lines before
> 9am and after 4pm, operating on the 42 Line route, mainly
> the 43 Express. (The 44 Express turns off Russell onto
> B St.) YoloBus has stops along 5th/Russel between F Street
> and Anderson Rd, most shared with UniTrans. The major
> stops are provided with a concrete pad for wheelchairs.
>
> Yolo Buses are all equipped with wheelchair lifts of
> various designs, some with complex restraint systems that
> in my experience can result in a bus stopping for up
> to 10 minutes, while a normal stop is less than a minute.
>
> In what way (if any) was bus traffic incorporated into the
> Fifth Street timing studies?
>
> (3) At the ON meeting the 26th, Steve mentioned in passing the
> possibility of moving a bus stop to the other side of the
> intersection, e.g. the one in the Fire Station block.
>
> In over 30 years of bus commuting, I've been to a lot of
> route & stop change hearings, and observed a lot of bus
> and bus rider activity/behavior, both in Davis and several
> of Sacramento's heaviest traveled routes.
>
> Regional Transit and Yolobus (which tends to follow RT practice)
> generally opposed locating a bus stop just upstream of a cross
> street. They prefer sites just downstream of the intersection.
>
> One reason is that both the intersection and the cross street
> sidewalk distance makes it easier to pull the bus fully into
> to curbside (without the rear end hanging out),
> so that the wheelchair lift can be deployed and
> passengers don't have to step into the street to board or
> exit by either the front or rear doors of the bus.
>
> Also, if more than one bus happens to arrive at the same time
> at a stop downstream of a minor cross street, the 2nd bus CAN
> (though this is discouraged) pull over partly in the
> intersection to briefly queue behind the first if necessary,
> freeing the traffic lane of the route street.
>
> But the main reason I've heard given is SAFETY.
> First, when a bus pulls over to stop upstream of an intersection,
> other traffic can be confused by the bus turn signal,
> not knowing whether the bus is making a right turn instead
> of pulling into the curb to stop.
>
> Following traffic will usually pass the bus on the left in
> either assumption. The stopped bus may obstruct following
> traffic's view of cross street traffic from the right,
> (or a stop sign on the route street), and vice versa.
> I've personally seen some near misses in these
> situations.
>
> Now, as you probably know, California has a law about
> School Buses, where it is prohibited to pass a School
> Bus that is stopped (and has a sign and lights on the
> back to that effect) because a lot of children were
> struck when passing in front of the bus after exiting.
>
> However, while this law doesn't apply to regular bus
> transit, adult bus riders tend to behave the same as
> children: when a bus is stopped just upstream of a stop sign,
> passengers tend to cross the route street in front of
> the bus (cross walk) where they can't be seen by traffic
> passing to the left of the bus until they emerge into the
> traffic lane. This may also impede the bus exiting the
> stop. I've even seen the bus almost hit someone crossing
> in front of it because the bus driver was looking at
> the rear view mirror for following traffic while pulling
> out of the stop.
>
> However, when the stop is downstream of the intersection,
> passengers from both exits will go the intersection
> (or crosswalk) BEHIND the bus, where they are visible
> to following traffic and vice versa. (Oncoming
> traffic is still a problem, but there's half a street
> more visibility.) Also the bus can pull out of
> the stop unimpeded if traffic permits. Cross street
> traffic is fully visible to following traffic at
> all times.
>
> In the particular case of the Fire Station stop on
> 5th Street, the further east the stop is the better,
> as the curve in the street along Central Park
> (and its street trees) make it difficult to see
> the stop until the bus is at C Street. Traffic
> is moving fast during commute hours and in winter
> it is often foggy in the morning and the buses can
> use the extra distance to see that they need to
> make that stop, especially with someone right on
> their tail.
>
> So it has been my experience that the bus authorities will
> resist locating a bus stop upstream of a cross street, and
> it would be well to get both UniTrans and YoloBus fully
> onboard about the proposals.
>
>
> BIKES:
>
> Buses and other traffic turning from 5th onto F (or
> F onto 5th) or traffic turning onto cross streets
> from 5th.
>
> The lack of bike lane on 5th causes the sidewalks along
> 5th Street to be used as bike lanes.
>
> Although bikes on sidewalks are an occasional hazard
> at all times in Davis, especially at start of school year
> when there are newcomers who don't know the system (bikes
> are supposed to use sidewalks in Sacramento), in
> general Davis pedestrians can expect not to have to
> dodge bikes on the sidewalks.
>
> But bike riders in my experience for some reason
> don't expect to yield to or watch out for
> pedestrians under any circumstance. When operating on
> a sidewalk in particular, and approaching a pedestrian
> from the rear, not one bike rider in a millian realizes
> that due to the Doppler effect, the pedestrian will not
> hear them until they whiz past, often even brushing up
> against you. This makes the 5th street sidewalks very
> pedestrian unfriendly at all times of day or night.
>
> The older sidewalks are not really wide enough for
> two way (or passing) traffic, whether two bikes or
> bikes and pedestrians (or pedestrian with dog.)
>
> In addition, as a freqent user of the bus stop on
> F Street at 5th, I have witnessed many near accidents between
> autos/buses and bikes, especially at the 5th and F
> and the 5th and C intersections. Even at F with a traffic
> light, the bike has the light in their favor as well
> as the 5th street traffic, and traffic turning off
> onto F can be suddenly confronted by a bike using
> the sidewalk speeding into the crosswalk in front
> of the turning vehicle. This is especially dangerous in
> the fog, at night, and where the row of street trees
> partly hides the sidewalk from the view of traffic
> and vice versa.
>
> So safety would be best served by getting the bikes
> off the sidewalks and onto their own lanes.
>
> Val
> -- 
> Valerie Vann
> valerie at vanngroup.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> oldnorth mailing list
> oldnorth at mailman.dcn.org
> http://www2.dcn.org/mailman/listinfo/oldnorth
>