[1st-mile-nm] Subject:Grappa Wireless Internet
Harris, Brian, WEU NMAGO
BHarris at nmag.gov
Tue Oct 28 10:14:58 PDT 2008
Your model is fascinating. Does Qwest provide the DS-3? Has that been
reliable and trouble free?
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: 1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org
[mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 6:50 PM
To: peter
Cc: friam at redfish.com; 1st-Mile-NM
Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] Subject:Grappa Wireless Internet
Comments embedded.
We are 802.11b to MPE (member premises equipment, not customer), 802.11a
backbones to a DS-3 upstream. We have some 5+ mile links (longest 11)
and I know that the members several hops out get multimegabit downstream
as a matter of course. When I say several hops, that can be as much (or
more than) as 10+ miles aggregate.
This is going to be sent over two hops to our upstream (each 2+ miles),
from which I regularly get 10 megabits+ down.
Members pay $30 per month. I think that may be a tad too much ($25 seems
"right" about now from a gut-sense without looking at cashflow).
However, we do need to invest in replacement and upgrade hardware.
I'd be *very* disappointed if I were a paying customer getting the
"performance" you're getting. Sounds like you're paying for a learning
curve.
I can get cable and DSL here. I'm not interested, and wouldn't be even
if I hadn't co-founded La Canada. The model we have isn't for everyone,
but it's worked here for 6+ years. I won't engage in speculation as to
what might (will?) kill us off; there are any number of technologies
that could and we'll just have to see how the future unfolds.
Bob
http://www.lcwireless.net
peter wrote:
> Thanks Steve / Robert
>
> And everyone who has responded directly It would seem that they are
> using Motorola Canopy 800 system.
>
> In Rio Rancho our company did a bunch of tests with various 802.11
> variants and even up to 802.20 Wi-max ( also FOS laser ) and we found
> some really curious issues with wireless up here in this part of NM
> such as
>
> 1. The faux adobe coatings on the majority of homes had chicken wire
> over the drywall and exterior coating to bond the plaster. This
> created a de facto Faraday cage effect and necessitated the use of a
> receptor booster amplifier as the only means of signal stability (
> Best place for signal input device was on the roof structure about 4
> feet above the roof clearing the up stand wall ) Attempts to use
> these buildings as reflectors ( Pool table type ) also fails for
> similar reasons. ( Different building structures perform better but
> you have to know that in advance )
We've had good success (depending on placement) with close to the roof
up to 3 feet or so. Depends on the individual situation, as you
indicate. Higher is better, of course.
>
> 2. Line of site target accuracy issues and echoing was prevalent on
> all wireless systems except FOS with huge loss of signal ( The signal
> bends and warps in atmospheric changes )
Clear LOS with no fresnel interference is critical. If you've got good
S/N atmospheric changes generally don't matter. And that includes
driving rain and snowstorms. We also have four solar sites. They run
well if well-engineered.
>
> 3. Weather related issues ( also seasonal ) affected all systems and
> deteriorated service by some 40 - 60%
See above.
>
> 4. No company at that time had run pre service due diligence ( In all
> seasons ) and none had mapped good / average / poor service areas (
> Azulstar only tested the signal to truck mounted antennas with good
> line of site to the service transmitter no more than 1 mile from the
> central site and not to the customers service point - hence they went
> out of business when it did not work )
When another WISP started out here (Eldorado) they thought it was flat.
So did we. We learned quickly about CLOS and fresnel and they didn't.
We're still here.
>
>
> 5. No system could demonstrate good symmetrical performance average
> was ( performance quoted to actual = Down 60% --- Up 20 - 30% )
The very nature of 802.11 makes symmetric performance problematic in
some situations. However, I just pulled 8 megabits upstream from the
WRAP on my roof to one of our servers. YMMV.
>
> 6. Security issues were noted on all systems and interception of both
> down and up was fairly easy with open source products
Not a surprise. WEP is a joke, WPA isn't much better if one has enough
iv's. That's why I believe in ssh, https and VPN's for stuff I don't
want prying eyes to see.
>
> 7. Multiple issues where noted with signal interference between
> especially around electrical power high voltage transmission lines (
> this rocketed in winter rain and adverse weather conditions and it
> would seem that the magnetic field of the lines shifts in bad weather
> and even sunspot type phases )
>
> All the above basically means that the field crews that support
> wireless must be constantly adjusting the system parameters to make it
> work an expensive proposition.
Really? We're all-volunteer with 300+ members and a core group of, at
most, 25 volunteers. I'd be surprised if the busiest volunteer is doing
over 10 hours per week. There certainly aren't 200+ hours per week being
expended in toto. Adjusting system parameters is occasional and
certainly not a daily activity if even weekly. And, when adjustments are
made, they're generally confined to a single access point (out of 50+ on
the system).
>
> The added point is that once the issues are understood you can boost
> the service in huge ways ( Including compression bursts and bit
> torrent type support ) especially if you are using the system to
> monitor the system and set realistic goals and know the type of
> service that the customer really wants.
We do monitor, and we are putting in place some sophisticated traffic
shaping on a transparent bridge as an anticipatory measure. However, our
DS-3 is being used at no more than 20% capacity down and much less up.
Misbehaving torrents are generally dealt with through education and,
once educated, members tend to be very well-behaved.
>
> Curious to get comments and further feedback
>
> ( : ( : pete
>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject:
>> Re: [FRIAM] Grappa Wireless Internet
>> From:
>> Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com>
>> Date:
>> Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:18:43 -0600
>> To:
>> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> To:
>> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam at redfish.com>
>>
>>
>> Robert Holmes wrote:
>>> Charming people but their internet service sucks. My connection from
>>> them is currently running at about 300K instead of the 1.5M I'm
>>> paying for ($70 per month).
>> I'm on a similar Motorola 600Mhz System run by the San Ildefonso
>> corporation Tewacom.com and have a similar experience (paying
>> $60/month). My service varies from 0-1.5M with ~.3M typical. I
>> get almost total dropouts for minutes at a time. They continue to
>> insist that my service is symmetric but it is rare that I get more
>> than 50% of download on upload. I use:
>> http://speakeasy.net/speedtest/ most of the time.
>>
>> If there is something inherently limited in these systems, I'd like
>> to understand it. I don't like pestering people trying to do their
>> job (TewaCom or Grappa) but I also like getting consistent, expected
>> performance.
>>
>>> Also because of the location of their radio towers (Santa Fe ski
>>> basin) their service gets even worse during the winter. Last winter
>>> they ended up giving everyone a rebate on one month's fee, though
>>> personally I'd have rather have the up-time than the cash.
>> I'm one mile from the TewaCom Xmitter and I get little if any
>> weather-related problems, but do seem to find dropouts and I seem to
>> need to reboot the 600Mhz modem somewhere between several times over
>> a few days to only once in a month.
>>> As soon as my contact expires, I'm transfering to Qwest, who have
>>> just started offering DSL in my neighbourhood.
>>
>> I switched from 1.5M (nominally down) Satellite WildBlue (56k up)
>> which was *never* down but averaged .5M down and .05 up with lots of
>> lag. WildBlue also had monthly quotas (not sliding) which did not
>> support iTunes-class downloads on a regular basis.
>>
>> Previously I was on dialup which I rarely got higher than 28K
>> connection with effective speeds of maybe 50% of that.
>>
>> I think Wireless on this scale makes most sense only when there are
>> no other choices. If DSL or Cable come available, I think they are a
>> better answer.
>>
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:10 PM, peter <pete at ideapete.com
>>> <mailto:pete at ideapete.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://grappawireless.com/about.html
>>>
>>> Anyone in the group have any experience or comments on these
guys
>>>
>>> ( : ( : pete
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Baston
>>>
>>> *IDEAS*
>>>
>>> /www.ideapete.com/ <http://www.ideapete.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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>
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